Sin, atheism, good, bad, and the existence of God (moved from theologer blog)

original post http://www.theologer.com/2008/05/unreasonable-morality-of-athiest-romans.html

Quote :

zeromind said:
Your saying anyone who doesn't believe in a Creator is a sociopath, that you have to believe in a creator to be good. Goodness is in everyones heart, it just might have been suppressed by certain life situations.

What if the reason atheist want to be good is because they are not selfish in regards to being good for a reward (eternal life in heaven), but because they realize that by being good they don't receive a reward, but benefit all humanity/creation.

I know plenty of atheist that are very good moral/ethical bound people. It seems your saying that the only reason your good is because you are scared of being burned which in itself is selfish. It seems that if you yourself knew that their were no consequences to your actions then you would just roll all in sin, totally submit yourself to it. That seems like a messed up thought pattern to me. Why do we have to be threatened in order to be good? It's simple we don't, people just say we do.

i thought i'd post this here and see if anyone else would be interested in getting in on this conversation...

Quote :

Roger Mugs said
no no... my argument is that if there is no God or Creator then our ideas of what are right and wrong should be based entirely on what feels good... if there is nothing greater than ourselves than there is no reason to do anything but try to please ourselves.

without a God there can be no reason for good and bad. There can be no reason for selfish or unselfish or even morality.

The reason to do good isn't fear of being burned, its belief in a creator who indeed knows better than I do how to live life. By doing what He says is good (our only basis for good) I believe I can live a better life, a more fulfilling life, and live it for eternity.

we dont have to be threatened to do good. You dont either... in my opinion this is because the law is written on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33b). if it's not then why are you doing good? where do you get "good" and "bad"?

if there is no God then there is no sin. Unless something bigger than us governs what is right and wrong there can be no sin. And so yes, if there was no God I would absolutely submit myself to what pleased myself. Because I would be the most important thing in the world.

Quote :

zeromind said
I would love to debate, this could be a good topic, maybe I'll join the forum (don't no why cause I really don't have the time).

I'm sure you will claim that the bible is proof of god. The funny thing is, is that god can't be proven or disproven. I haven't seen god, have you? Never heard any audible voices claiming to be god either. So with this in mind, some of humanity has happened to keep a record of times in the past (Jews, the OT) more than other cultures. The bible to me, if anything, is a historical record of how that tribe used to be in that area. What about the Japanese or Asians? Never spoken of in the bible, maybe it is because the tribe (Jews) was unaware of their existence.

You say there can be no good or bad without god, but I believe that is your own opinion. What you claim has never been proven and it can't be proven. Humanity has a thought pattern different from animals. We can choose things, when animals are programed to do what is natural (no choice, just like robots that do what their are programed to do). We have evolved or been given a frontal lobe that allows us to make our own decisions whether they are the best or not. From this choice, with our design, we learn to correct ourselves through mistakes. How do we know what is right? Did god come down and make us see his way, when it didn't make logical sense? No, we had to mess up in order to see the better way.

The bible to me is just humans finding out for themselves what is right and what is wrong and a documentation of it. Jesus had the best phrase ever, the golden rule (he had evolved more than the rest). Humans realized that pleasing only themselves creates strife because when ONE looks out only for THEM SELF, it creates unbalance not only within themselves, but the people around them. After so many years of going through this grief, they learned that what we call sin, is only pleasing for a short period of time.

I don't see how you get the idea that god tells us what is good or bad. I never needed Moses to get the 10 commandments, why, because I feel that it has been written in me like the animals are programmed to do what they do. No matter what, I feel as if it is like when I laugh or cry. When something is funny, I can't make myself cry and vise versa. We a programmed to build upon what we already know. History of humans is evidence of that. Would you allow slavery in this day and time? It was long ago when slavery ended, when segregation ended, when blacks were allowed to vote, etc. Meaning that we have mentally evolved, but not that much as it takes time.

Who says "if there is no god, then their is no sin"? That is your own mind thinking and claiming that. I'm sure god didn't tell you that himself.

I have chosen what felt good or what you would call "sin", but after realizing that it was short lived and that it not only hurt myself and others, then I decided (who decided, I did) what was best for me and others.

How do you know there is a god, and since you don't know for sure, then why don't you submit yourself unto your natural desires and do what hurts every body else? Because for some odd reason, it doesn't feel right.

I'm not saying that I don't believe in a Creator, but just because we have a choice of "good" or "bad" doesn't mean that there is a Creator.

I would agree with him that the Bible doesn't "prove God." I believe that the earth and the universe speak to the existence of a creator. That I choose to to believe in the God of the Bible as that creator is my own decision. I find it hard to understand how someone can take a long hard look at humanity, our accomplishments (good and bad), the earth, and the universe... and then conclude that there was no creator. I know I'm sort of combining two things here, but that was my initial thought. I look forward to the continuing dialog here on the forum. If not, then at least on your original post.

i think it would be difficult to argue that the bible is evidence of God... but if there is a God it is pretty good evidence that he is a personal loving God... -although thats for another discussion...

as for morality or proof from design.... these are all among many reasons or "proofs" for God

http://www.philosopher.org.uk/god.htm

I happen to think they are pretty undeniable... but i doubt i could convince you of that...

Quote :

Who says "if there is no god, then their is no sin"? That is your own mind thinking and claiming that. I'm sure god didn't tell you that himself.

as for this argument... sin is a concept related to absolute truth and absolute morality... there isn't Sin if there aren't absolutes... otherwise its just what we think is right or what we think is wrong.. if there is sin it is because there is an absolute right and wrong... which, for there to be, there must be something bigger than man to determine this...

again, i agree with you that no one had to tell you what is right or what is wrong... but i believe it was written on your heart by God... you believe it got there some other way... through evolution perhaps...

all of this to say... i think its interesting that you made this argument... i respectfully disagree and understand that you do with me as well...

i'm also convinced that it is unlikely we will convince each other... the best i can offer is to pray that you'll know the truth... if there's no God, then there's nothing to worry about because it wont be heard and therefore will go unanswered...

i always think its an interesting thing to ask an atheist to consider making that prayer... "God, I don't think you exist, but if you do, help me believe it"

its a scary prayer... but if he's not there... he wont hear it... lemme know what you think.

rogermugs wrote:

without a God there can be no reason for good and bad. There can be no reason for selfish or unselfish or even morality.

That is one of the weirdest statements I've ever heard.

You are dismissing entire religions that don't believe in a single god, or believe in ancestor or spirit worship and what not. Do you think all other beliefs completely aimless and immoral? Good, bad and the concept of morality are not for monotheist alone.

great point "design"...

Many different worldviews have a certain level of morality. However, I think that it is what the morality is based on is what is important. For example, in a humanist society the moral values can change based on what people feel is "good for the whole". But with this, there is no baseline to compare it to.

Ultimately, a culture driven by drug dealers could determine that it is okay to kill people as long as it protects one's territory. I know that this is an extreme example, but the point is that ultimately without a strong, unmovable baseline, moral values can easily shift.

I am certainly not denying the fact that many non-Christian people have "goodness" in them, but I think the idea is that it is "good" because of how it compares to that moral absolute found in the Biblical Christian worldview...

just my two cents...

Dan

design219 wrote:

rogermugs wrote:

without a God there can be no reason for good and bad. There can be no reason for selfish or unselfish or even morality.

That is one of the weirdest statements I've ever heard.

You are dismissing entire religions that don't believe in a single god, or believe in ancestor or spirit worship and what not. Do you think all other beliefs completely aimless and immoral? Good, bad and the concept of morality are not for monotheist alone.

I just realized that the long post i thought i wrote a week ago never posted...


basically i just was arguing if you believe in any greater power then there is reason for morality... but if we're the biggest and most important thing around then there is no reason

rogermugs wrote:

basically i just was arguing if you believe in any greater power then there is reason for morality... but if we're the biggest and most important thing around then there is no reason

Sounds logical. A self-centered personality would naturally only exhibit morals that ultimately benefited himself.